Aging and Field Judging Deer
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Bryan from GA asks:This past deer season, I killed a buck that was 18 inches outside spread and weighed 235 pounds. That is a big boded deer in the state of Georgia. His antlers say 3 and a half years old but his body says 4 and a half. He is new on my farm I've never seen this deer before.I started seeing him in early summer this past year. Mainly his food sources are soybeans, corn, deer feed, and whitetail institute imperial chic magnet. What would be your estimation of age?Winke Responds:Bryan, I would not be able to guess without at least seeing the deer on the hoof moving around. Based on body weight (which is not a great indicator) I am with you, he is likely a fully mature buck. I suppose they can reach 235 at 3 with that kind of diet down there, but I have hunted GA and the bucks generally aren't real big bodied. Very hard to say from the body weight alone. Good luck. (4-20-12)
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Steve from TN asks:Hi Bill I enjoy the show a lot especially all the tips. I hunt with some friends in Illinois and they want to shoot deer 140 inches or better. I have appreciated the info on aging deer on the hoof. But i really need some help learning how to judge antler size. Any tips?Winke Responds:Steve, That is a tough one. Normally, you don't have time to really scale everything to see what you think it will score. You have to just take it all in at once and make a decision. We aren't real score oriented here, but instead try to focus on age instead. However, the best way to get good at estimating score is to guess the score of all the deer you see in the magazines and on TV and then see how close you come to the real number. We aren't going to be of much use to you there as we don't often give a score on our bucks. In fact, we don't often score them until sometimes many years later. There are likely some tutorials on the web about field judging bucks. You might do a search and see what you find. If you really want to shoot a big antlered buck, you have to adopt a philosophy that if you have to ask how much it scores, it isn't big enough. When you see a truly big deer, you don't have to ask - you know they are big. If you have to talk yourself into shooting it, it probably isn't big enough. Good luck. (4-14-12)
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Hunter from OK asks:Bill, very intriguing show on the buck aging. I've got to ask, how confident are you with the results for the G5 buck? Like you, I was surprised (more like dumbfounded). Every aspect of that deer's body indicates he was 5.5+. Was his tooth wear consistent with a 4.5 year old (I know this isn't the best indicator, but I'm curious)? Thanks for another great show! HunterWinke Responds:Hunter, I have never been too much of a believer in tooth wear to age bucks. I have seen way too many discrepancies there. I have heard from some that the cementum annuli testing is not 100% accurate either. I am not certain on the G5 buck, but his antlers in 2009 made me think 2 1/2 at the time. He had a very blocky body, but I suppose that could be just the fact that he was a big-bodied buck from the start - like some kids are just bigger than others. Not sure on him, completely, but for now I will go with the analysis and call him 4 1/2 last year. He sure made all of us think 5 1/2 though. I appreciate the support. (4-10-12)
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Jason from WI asks:Have you ever used shed antlers to age deer scientifically? I ask this question because I did a research project in college trying to link deer antler pedicel circumference to age. More notably there are rings left on the bottom of the antler left as each new growth year begins due to the hardening of the cartilage around the base of the antler from the year previous. Almost as if little ridges are formed. I was close to publishing it, my sample size was to small to get an accurate result. I was at a 92% confidence interval, 3% short of publication. They may be very hard to see, but take a look. I'd be willing to show you my data/graphs if you'd like. -Jason-Winke Responds:Jason, I have never tried that nor heard of anyone promoting that idea. I can see how that would work though. I would not base it on cicurmference because mass is partially related to age, but more related to genetics. The rings might make a lot of sense though. I would be interesting in learning more. Thanks for the input. If you want to e-mail us something, you can send to info@midwestwhitetail.com. Once I see it, I may post it as a blog. I am sure othhers would be interested even if it not 95% confidence. Have a great day. (4-10-12)
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Jeremy from TX asks:Jeremy here again found the article on deer aging. The Klegerg Report by John Lewis Aging white tail deer in South Texas. Texas Trophy Hunters Association Vol 36, #3 May/June 2011. The report said the best results they got back from the cementum annuli on known aged deer was 61% +/-1yr!! So don't get too upset if the age comes back way off from what were thinking. Apparently you can get more info at www.ckwri.tamuk.edu Hope this helps.Winke Responds:Jeremy, Thanks for the information. I missed a couple of the bucks, but it could have been just a misjudgement on my end. I think, overall, the numbers we got back were pretty close to what we were thinking. Have a great Easter (4-8-12)
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Jeremy from TX asks:I know you sent your deer teeth in for the cementum annuli aging, I have also done this. There was an article in the Texas Trophy Hunters magazine where they sent in teeth from deer w/ known age (taged deer/pen raised) to see if the cementum annuli was accurate. I don't remember the exact percentages, but I want to say they found that the compaines they sent teeth to were right somewhere between 40-60% of the time, not the 90% the company claimed. Again I don't remember the exact numbers but I do remember it was not much better than a guess. I will see if I can find the article. Just FYI.Winke Responds:Jeremy, Good information. I need to learn more. I used Matsons Labs and they give a confidence measure with each test. Most were rated "A" but one was a "B". The few I had in there of known age they hit. Most were not known age though. They had G5 and Daggers at 4. That is quite possible, but I had thought G5 might have been 5 - Daggers definitely could have been 4 - I would believe that. Makes you wonder how big those bucks would have grown if they had gotten away another year! I don't think I can bring myself to start passing 180+ inch 4 year olds just yet. Maybe some day, but that is a tough one. Best regards and Happy Easter (3-6-12)
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Bob from SC asks:I hear hunters say thats a 2 year old, thats a 3 year old thats a mature 4 year old. How can you tell a deers age from a treestand? I can tell fawns and yearlings and that is it.Winke Responds:Bob, We will cover that in a future episode, but it is similar to how you tell roughly the age of a person. In some cases it is body language (how they move). It has to do with the shape of certain body parts, wrinkles here and there, etc. I can tell 1 from 2 from 3 from 4+ and that is about it. Past 4 I have a hard time telling them apart by sight alone. I need a history with the deer to tell a 5 from 6, for example. Keep watching, we'll touch on it soon. Thanks. (3-12-12)
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john from AR asks:Hi Bill I am planning a trip to the midwest this fall. being from arkansas we dont see alot of big bucks (body or antler) My friend who lives in Kansas passed on a buck last year because he thought he was too small. the buck had a tight rack less than 14 inch inside but was very tall. After talking to some guys around he said the buck was probly over 140. I dont want to make the same mistake by shoting a buck that is much smaller than I think or passing on a buck that is larger than I think. How do I train my self to field jugde a buck well? thanks johnWinke Responds:John, People who are used to smaller bodied deer tend to under-estimate the size of the antlers on big bodied deer. However, I guess if I were you, I would rather under-estimate them than over-estimate them. I think the biggest mistake a lot of people make when coming to the Midwest is shooting a buck that is well under the normal size for a trophy in that area, but is a trophy back home. You aren't hunting back home. I would try to shoot something that is a good buck for the area you are hunting. So what if you don't get one, you can always come back again. I would never go to Arizona elk hunting and shoot a 275 bull just so I would get an elk. I would hold out for what the area can produce. I would give you the same advice when hunting the Midwest for deer. If it looks big shoot it - don't try to sort out the score. That way there is a pretty good chance it will still be big when you climb down to recover it. Good luck. (2-26-12)
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Cory from WI asks:Hey Bill. Love the show. My question has to do with aging deer. How do you feel about taking out the front 2 teeth and sending them in to get analyzed for age of deer. The process is very cheap and seems to be great process for getting the exact age of your deer after the shot. Have you or anyone you know ever tried this? ThanksWinke Responds:Cory, I think that is a great way to do it. However, I understand that even that method is not 100% accurate, especially on older deer. It is, however, considered by experts to be the most accurate method for aging deer. Merry Christmas. (12-20-11)
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Chris from NJ asks:Congrats on your amazing season! I am really struggling with ageing deer on the hoof besides looking at their racks which really doesnt help you tell there age. Is there any books or charts out there on the market that can help me with ageing my deer.Winke Responds:Chris, Larry Weishuhn did a book on that one time. We will do an off-season episode on it this year to help out some. It comes down to body shape and a few other things that will help you tell the younger bucks from the fully mature ones. Merry Christmas. (12-15-11)
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Mike from MN asks:Are you a member of the Pope & Young Club? If so, have your read the 2011 Fall Newsletter? In particular the Records Chairman's Report on pages 24-25? It's a good read! I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in preserving the integrity of the Boone & Crocket and Pope & Young scoring system. The clubs view on constant use of "gross only" score is an abuse and misuse of the scoring system. Bigger is not always better. Like Mr. Kistler said "We have the most respected scoring system in the world and it would be a shame to have its value diminished". What’s your view on this subject? Congratulations on two world class deer Bill!!!Winke Responds:Mike, I am not a member. I am sure it is something that I should do. To be honest, I am more interested in preserving bowhunting and hunting than to preserve the integrity of the scoring system, but I know that P & Y is an active advocate for the preservation of bowhunting too. I never take score too seriously. I don't have a problem with people who love to score deer, but I have never since I started hunting had any animal officially scored. I will argue with him on one point. Bigger is always better. If he grew it, give him credit for it. But as I mentioned, I am not anti-score. If I ever shoot a state record or something like that I would probably score it then. I came close in Colorado back in 2000 but even then I didn't score the buck. In my opinion, being an outsider looking in, any scoring group should be first focused on preserving the sport we love and then on the scoring system. P & Y may be doing that. I have just never been heavily involved. I am just not a score person. I love big mature bucks, regardless of score. In many cases, the score actually diminishes from the trophy. The experience of the hunt and the relationship between the hunter and the buck, the excitement of the day - all are much more important to me than a number. Good luck. (11-27-11)
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Matthew from WV asks:Hey Bill big fan, I have a 700 acre lease in Mercer county Missouri (north central). My question is what is the best way to age deer either on the hoof or by trail cam photos. Sometimes I look at pictures of bucks with 140" racks that have little bodies, Other bucks may have bigger bodies and 120" racks. Were striving to kill 4 and 1/2 year old bucks regardless of antler size, But struggling at knowing that age for sure. What is the average weight of a 3 1/2 year old buck and 41/2 year old buck. ThanksWinke Responds:Matthew, I find it hard to age them via photos. I do OK with video and much better with my own eye. I want to see their body size, how they move, the shape of their body, face and neck. I can't tell all that from a photo. I will have to do a segment on that at some point. There are books on the market about aging deer on the hoof, but if you are willing to wait until after the season we will do an off-season episode on aging bucks on the hoof. Deer have different sizes like people do, but I would say an average 4 1/2 will be roughly 20 to 35 pounds heavier (field dressed) than the average 3 1/2 year old. Body shape is a big indicator or age - more than body weight. Good luck. (11-14-11)
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brian from IA asks:BILL, WAS HOPING YOU COULD VIEW A DEER PICTURE AND HELP ME AGE AND SCORE THIS ONEWinke Responds:Brian, I try to discourage that. If I tell folks to send them, I will get swamped and I would never get any work done. As the site has grown in popularity, it has really started to suck a lot of my time. I like doing this king of stuff, but I just can't maintain the pace. During the rut last year I got about 25 to 30 questions per day. It takes a long time to answer them all. And the numbers have grown about 40% on the site since then, so it will be even tougher to keep up this year. I am going to make some changes to the site in the next few weeks (months) that will allow us to do more of this utilizing the entire pro staff through the website without all the correspondence having to come straight to me. When that happens, it will make the interactive part of MW much easier to handle. Until then, I must ask you to hold off on sending in trail cam phoots. Thanks. Good luck.
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Frank from IA asks:Can I send you a trail cam picture of a buck that my neighbor and I are having a debate on his age? He has a very nice rack but may be young??? Would like your opinion. ThanksWinke Responds:Frank, I try to discourage people from doing that because it takes so much time, but if you send them to info@midwestwhitetail.com I'll do my best to take a look at them. Have a great day.
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dan from ON asks:hey winke! i just wanna say thanks for taking all of this time to answer peoples questions, including my own previously! my question is, how easy is it to tell the deer you have on camera this year, is a deer from a previous photo? i have a couple bruisers and i cant seem to be able to tell the differance... also, i notice you seem to be able to estimate a deers score fairly quickly, any special trick you have for this? dan, ontairo canada ps i could email you the pics if you likeWinke Responds:Dan, Sometimes it is just something like a certain twist in a brow tine or a unique characteristic in the rack. I am not as good at it as Drew Yarkosky. I think he remembers every buck we have ever photographed or filmed and is quick to pair it up with the same buck the next year - sometimes even two years later. I can get reasonbly close to the gross score on the fly, but I do sometimes get surprised. There are all kinds of methods you can use by using the size of the deer's eye the length of his ear, etc. to help you measure the mass and tine length, etc. I don't do that. I am not that worried about it. If they look big they are big. That is what I go by. However, when trying to put a score on them, my tendency is to over-estimate the score on medium sized trophy bucks so I try to take a few inches off all my estimates. I have looked at thousands of dead deer over the years at deer classics, deer shows, in magazines, in my friends' trophy rooms, etc. and I have just gained a general sense of what a 160 looks like, what a 170 looks like, etc. The ones I have a hard time with are the really big ones. We just don't see many of them and I generally tend to under-estimate them. After a while you will learn your tendencies, but mostly my method comes from looking at lots of deer. Good luck this season.
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Nate from MN asks:Hello Bill, I can't wait for the new MW season to start! You guys do a great job. I was reading some of your questions and answers and came across the requests for an episode on aging deer on the hoof. I am making progress on aging on the hoof and have learned to try and look at antler size last, but still having some trouble on certain bucks. I'd like to join others in requesting a deer aging (on the hoof) episode with some footage of real deer as examples. If you find the time I'm sure it would be beneficial to alot of us. Thanks again and take care. NateWinke Responds:Nate, We will plan on doing one of them in the next few weeks. I have a lab that does tooth sectioning to determine the age and they have volunteered to do a quick turnaround for us on some of our bucks this fall so we can tell the actual age after we have estimated them on the hoof. I will get all that together for a show sometime in September. Thanks for your support.
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cameron from AB asks:Hi Bill, I was wondering if you could give me some tips on judging if a buck is a shooter? I seem to think they are bigger than they really areWinke Responds:Cameron, That is definitely common. You may just need to factor that into your decision making. Just know that you often over-judge them. I look to age first when deciding. If they have a big, blocking body and all the other signs (loose skin around the face and neck and possibly a stiff walk) I then decide if it is a deer I want to shoot. Generally, it will be as I feel that any older age class buck is a trophy regardless of his rack. That is a more realistic way to judge bucks because there are very few really good scoring bucks in any given area, but there may be several old bucks. As another method, consider just passing up any buck that doesn't grab your attention as soon as you see them. If you have to decide if he is big enough - talk yourself into it - he probably isn't. He will probably suffer from "Ground Shrink". Hope that helps.
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Ryan from IA asks:Bill, How do you make the distinction at the " Time of question" of should I take this one or not. I tend to have a certain Size or Class in my mind when I hunt so for obvious reason I let a lot of deer pass which in the end Ive had the experience of, " Damn, I should have taken that buck." I'm starting to have that mentality of, " if it's brown it's down," which is again the wrong one. So basically, how do you pick and choose? I read an article you wrote a while back talking about track scouting and trail cam usage and things of that nature which is something I have been doing however the track sightings have worked better than the trail camera. What are some tips or tricks for the Cams so I can get my moneys worth?Winke Responds:Ryan, I am not quite as tuned to antler size as I used to be. Now, we have picked out certain bucks to try to shoot and if any of them show up it is instant green light. I find these bucks through trail camera photos and summer video. Beyond that, obviously, if it is big shoot it. But more importantly, I look at signs of the buck's age. If he looks old, he gains higher priority with me than if he is young (we don't shoot any bucks of 3 1/2 or younger regardless of size) or middle aged. I have a soft spot for those old bruisers. They are worth adversaries regardless of antler size. Basically, I would recommend learning to age bucks on the hoofs (some bucks on the subject) and shoot mature bucks without too much regard for antler size. In the end, I think this will produce the greatest amount of satisfaction. Cameras: I am not a big expert on cameras. I own several. I have to admit I do like the Covert models. They are small, affordable and take pretty good images.
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Randy from MN asks:Hi, my question is about aging deer. Unfortunately the big boy I was chasing all year outsmarted me. Thankfully he is still sticking around after the season at our feeder. We got some great pics of him recently and I noticed that his G2's are a couple inches shorter than his G3's. Is this a sign of old age and him going "downhill" or just a genetic trait? He has a huge body and looks mature, just not very good at judging age, can you help?Winke Responds:Randy, It is definitely a genetic trait. We see that quite a bit here too. Good luck getting him this year.
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Troy from MI asks:Winke, Enjoy the videos, great jobs getting the individual groups together, and bringing them to us. Would like to see a video on your ideas of how to size up deer in the field to make the best choose on the older deer compaired to the one we should let go for a few more yr? what are the things we should be looking for and why?Winke Responds:Troy, Funny, I just got another similar question right before yours. I will try to produce such a video using last year's footage that will make that pretty clear. As I stated in the other answer, it is all in the shape of the body.
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ken from MT asks:what things do you look for when determining if a buck is old and small of antler and would be a cull buck, as opposed to a younger buck with the same size antlers that will grow to be much bigger?Winke Responds:Ken, It is all in the body size and shape. After looking at a lot of deer, it starts to become natural, similar to aging people. You know what to look for tell is a person is in their prime, past their prime or still and "up and comer". Without going into a ton of detail here, I would offer that we look for blocky deer, those with full chests, full straight stomachs or even drooping stomach, loose skin in the neck and maybe even a slight sway back. A streamlined, race horse looking buck is likely young. Old bucks look blocky. I can tell them a long ways without ever seeing the antlers. There are videos and books out there to help you learn about aging deer on the hoof. I would suggest a google search on various phrases to find them. Good luck.
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paul from WI asks:You guys talk about the age class issue for harvesting deer. After watching a ton of hunting videos I still feel that I am not a good judge for aging a deer on the hoof. After 23 yrs of hunting, judging the score of the buck I feel I have become pretty good at. There are a lot of videos out there where guys will say "Thats a 3 1/2 or thats a 4 1/2 year old". One can tell when you see an old buck but being able to tell the difference beteween that 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 year old shooter in a matter of seconds to determine if you are going to shoot or not, it must be mostly luck. It seems if it turns out to be a 4 1/2 the guy on the video looks like a pro and if it turns out to be a 3 1/2 it must be a new guy or oops he made a mistake. Explain or better yet show the difference. By the way great show, I look forward to each weeks new episodes. ThanksWinke Responds:Paul, It is not luck. Let me put it a different way, comparing people. If you had a 5 year old, a 15 year old, a 25 year old, a 35 year old, etc. all in a line. You would do pretty well figuring out which decade group they fit into. It is unlikely that you would call the 25 year old a 35 year old, for example. You would be able to do that quite quickly too. That is pretty much the way it is when looking at deer. I think it is pretty easy to tell the 3 1/2s from the 4 1/2s. I have a harder time telling the 4 1/2s from the 5 1/2s (unless I have watched that buck grow up) so I don't even try. Anything 4 1/2 and older, we shoot first ask questions later. We do that the same way that you would do it when looking at people - visual cues. For example, a 3 1/2 year old buck looks long-legged compared to an older deer. The younger buck's face will appear more taut and streamlined. His body will will be narrower and his waist line will have a little lift to it. What I tell guys that are hunting my farm and don't feel like they can tell the difference is this: "If he doesn't look old, he probably isn't." They don't start looking old until 4 1/2 years.
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B from WI asks:Hi Bill - Just wanted to say thank you for the show and keep up the great work. I have a question on aging/scoring big bucks. I have a trailcam pic of a big buck that I'm very excited to hunt this year and a few other bucks that are pretty nice considering the high pressure area I'm hunting. The big guy is a very heavy eight point, that I WILL NOT pass on, but it got me wondering if i did how big he'd actually get. I'd like to send you a pic of him so you're not shooting in the dark on his size, but I'd guess he's anywhere from 140-160. I'm new on the whole scoring/aging deer and was hoping you'd be able to pass on some tips on how to do it by eye. Please let me know if I can pass the picture on to you and if I'd be able to do so by e-mail. Thanks again!Winke Responds:B. You can send it through the info@midwestwhitetail.com link on the home page. However, I don't want to open the flood gates by promising everyone that I will respond to every request to age deer on trail cam pix. I will do my best, but a lot of times I'm guessing anyway. It can be hard to age deer from one photo, especially a summer photo. If it has a lot of mass, it is likely a fairly mature deer, as mass is typically one sign of age (though not all old bucks become massive - it is a genetic trait like any other.) However, it is very rare to see a massive buck that is under 3 1/2 years old.
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JEFF from PA asks:Bill, Awesome web site !!! I have applied to Iowa for several years, and with 2 points, I'm hoping to get an archery tag this year.First, Have you ever hunted in zone #3 near Mondamin? The area looked great when I scouted It in 2007.Second, the deer in PA are much smaller, how do you score a buck, or decide if its a shooter when you have such little time to make such a decision. Thanks, JeffWinke Responds:Jeff, All of that stuff out there in Western Iowa is good. In fact, most of Iowa is good except the extremely agricultural areas. I have never hunted that area, but know enough people that do to be able to recommend it. Your biggest challenge will be to keep from dropping the string on a 2 1/2 year old buck. They can score up to 145+ here and are pretty easy to see. We don't shoot 3 1/2s either, but I'm guessing you would be shooting them given your situation. The key is to look at the body and not the antlers. If the deer appears to have a big, blocky head and thick shoulders, big neck it is probably at least 3 1/2 and you likely won't make a mistake. If it looks sleek and long-legged, it is probably young and you run the risk of shooting a buck that will shrink considerably once you get it on the ground. My own decision whether to shoot is based on the "if you have to think twice it isn't a shooter" criteria. If you stick with that, you probably won't go wrong.
